Are we a "bumper car" series? [long]

#1

An interesting question…

Now that I have had a couple of days to cool down, I will try to put into words what I have been thinking about after Sunday’s race. For me, Sunday’s race was not only a disappointment because, for three race weekends in a row, I have sustained damage to my car, but from the explanation I received from the person who inflicted the damage. I am going to put a disclaimer forward that I will try to be as objective as possible.

Please: I ask that we do not flame, personally attack, or denigrate the unknown driver. I write this to ask a very important topic about this series that has been an important part of my life for the last 5 years. I am more interested in understanding where we are as a series and not how we can beat up someone who shares our passion for racing but might have differing opinions on how.

I decided this weekend would be a “DE” of sorts because it was my first weekend of racing for the year. I made sure all of the safety checks were in place but did not obsess over whether the tire pressures were correct, whether they went through too many heat cycles, etc. I would just drive as fast as I can without getting too competitive. I finished fifth on Saturday and resolved on Sunday to keep this perspective even though I qualified 12th.

The race started and, of course, it is a cluster of three-wide racing into turn one. I was in the middle of a three-wide and got bumped driving through turn one by a driver. I personally would try to steer clear of a car that I accidentally bumped so as to make the contact report and subsequent questioning by Grumpy to be less painful. The driver did not share my thoughts. He decided that he would drive the grass and try to force me over and let him through and proceeded to hit me again, putting a dent on the right passenger door. Contact was made twice between turns 2 and 3. I could not move over since I had someone to the left of me. We continued through turns 3 and 4 and when we got to the carousel, the driver decided to try to dive bomb the corner hitting me twice and putting at least 4 dents along the left side of the car from the front fender to the rear of the car and causing me to spin and end up in last place.

The good news is that it was all sheet metal and the car finished the race. It can still race and be competitive (with someone more competent behind the wheel). The bad news is the car, freshly out of the body shop from the last race, is beaten up again.

The response by the driver shocked me and is why I am asking the question in the subject. I was told that I should not race in SpecE30 if I do not expect to be bumped around. If I want to race for the lead, I was informed, then there should be an expectation that the car will get bumped, dented, and scratched. It is all part of racing. Then he proceeded to point out all of the bumps and scrapes and dents on Chris Cobetto’s car as validation of his point.

This driver, who I had never seen before racing in SpecE30, was telling me, who has raced in SpecE30 for over 5 years, that I should expect this kind of behavior when I race in the SpecE30 class. I can only guess that he did not know my tenure with SpecE30, but if he did… Is this true? Is our series known for bumping, scratching, denting our way to victory?

I have done some soul searching (ok, for 3 days) and would like to know the consensus of the group. Is that what our culture is? And if it is not, how was this perception formed that a relative new comer has determined that the culture is one of bumper cars? If we are known for this, is it what we want our series to be?

I got into this series because it was the cheapest form of FUN racing. I was in the back of the pack with the legends of SpecE30 Mid Atlantic… Cobetto, Hall, Hunt, May, Battle, Herrington (and others I might have left out)… but I loved it! I learned a lot but never learned that we needed to bump and push others to win.

One observation of a fellow SpecE30 driver is that most of our cars now have dents and that most people do not fix them anymore. Could this be why there is a perception that we are a bumper car series?

I have difficulty in believing we have come to this. I cannot believe that someone like Patton and his well prepared and creatively inspired cars would like to bang door to door in order to squeek out that last place. But I have been wrong before and could be wrong again.

If things have changed, and I just did not know that the culture is changed, then please provide your thoughts. I am not going to judge whether it is a good or bad thing. If this group as a whole wants that to be the culture of the series, I am not going to stomp my feet in protest. I will say that if the culture has moved in that direction, I will have to (sadly) be left behind.

Thoughts?

A brother in speed,

-Kappy

EDIT: I want to correct AND APOLOGIZE to the driver for implicating him for the contact between turns 2 and 3. Someone has provided me video which clearly shows me in the wrong for moving over on him forcing him into the grass. Emotion must have gotten the best of me when we discussed it after the race because I clearly felt like he moved over on me. I will also contact Jim and NASA Mid-Atlantic and ask that I be disqualified for unintended contact beyond a racing incident.

That being said, what the driver said at the end of the race is something that I still believe should be discussed.

#2

Steve, I share your concerns. Back in the day of 5-8 car fields it was easy to drop in line based on an unwritten pecking order of fast and experienced. Then, work up to challenge as you bettered your game. Everyone knew everyone and what to expect driving wise. Know who you’re racing…

Bigger fields are just that, bigger fields. We always have someone to race with, but far greater unknowns. Unknowns like me, I’ve started last and done some grass racing to get past folks. Thankfully they had room to give way for my agressive moves. And, I talked to them after the race to say “thanks for watching out.”

The horse has left the barn as far as 13/13 types of rules are concerned (you can do a search, but it ain’t happening).So, we’re back to know who you are racing—you’ve just got to know more folks?

Hang in there, Robert Patton

#3

I think that a number of us are a little casual about damaging each other’s cars. I try hard as hell to not hurt other guy’s cars. It would be nice to hope that they are thinking the same thing. But the videos and conversations over time tell me that I’m optimistic.

I’ve not been doing this that long. I’m just out of my rookie year. If you feel that rubbing is racing, just tell me before the race and if you’re behind me I’ll let you by.

I’m a pretty mild mannered guy. The SE types would probably agree that they’ve never heard me utter an unkind word about a soul . I understand that contact occurs sometimes such that it’s hard to be too critical of the instigator. And it’s certainly to a guy’s credit if offers an abject apology after screwing up and hurting your car. But god help me if the day comes that someone damages my car simply because they were too aggressive, and then shrugs it off as if it’s inconsequential, I’ll <*****>.

I was going to say “make an axe-murderer look like a girlscout”, but should one end up in trouble with the law, it would ill-behoove a person to have such a skeleton in their closet.

On the other hand, I just figured out that this post was in the MA forum, so maybe I should just keep my nose out and mouth shut.

#4

So, Steve, how was the post-race contact report handled by NASA?
bruce

#5

leggwork wrote:

[quote]So, Steve, how was the post-race contact report handled by NASA?
bruce[/quote]

Bruce,

The driver was disqualified.

I edited my original post at the bottom and will also request from NASA that I be disqualified for the contact that was clearly my fault.

I will update when I receive a response.

-Steve

#6

stevekappy wrote:

[quote]I edited my original post at the bottom and will also request from NASA that I be disqualified for the contact that was clearly my fault.
[/quote]

Quite a stand-up thing to do. I surely hope that we are not in a bumper car series. I have had body-damage contact 5 times in 5 years (over probably 40 race weekends). Three of those were the inside guy caving in a door on my Miata. One in the E30 was the start of the Nat’l Champ race last year when Carlton bunched up the field in Madness, Simon checked up and I tattoo’d his rear bumper. When I went to apologize after the race he said something to the effect of “thanks for getting me back up to speed.” The last one was with Canterbury at CMP earlier this year. He had a tank slapper going and I thought I had cleared him. I was wrong and dinged my quarter panel. I talked to him after the race and he thought I turned him. I showed him my video and we had a very civil chat about just how late in the incident I hit him.

I say all that to say that I have been very lucky. And I try my hardest to avoid trouble.

I don’t have a good memory for what happened on which lap and I have an even worse ability to figure out what the hell happened when it all goes wrong. For those reasons, video is invaluable to me.

Robert nailed it. Know who you are racing. I try to check out other cars. If some dude has the stock inside rear view mirror, is missing the right one and the left one is broken, I will give wide berth. Of the people with damage on their cars, I’ve learned that some are fast and will finish at the front. Others are fast until they take themselves out. I let both of those types by without much fight.

On the first lap, always assume there is a guy on the other side of the guy next to you.

I am probably revealing too much about my strategy, but I can live with that. I truly hope that the “gentleman racing” vibe we have in the Southeast keeps going. I know IndyJim (and I and others) like to poke fun at the Spec E30 Tent idea, that stuff works. If I am paddocked next to you, I am way more likely to give and take on the track.

Sorry to hear about the incidents.

Steve D.

#7

Are we a “bumper car” series?
I like what patton said but I would add that just like you race differently with individual drivers, you also race a lot differently at the front than at the rear. I’ve spent time at both ends of the field and it’s clear that all contact is not the same. When I was more of a midpacker last year, if there was any metal to metal then there was a very high chance it was going to end badly. At the front, guys trust each others’ ability enough to nudge another car in a turn if neccessary. I’ve found that it can get rough up there but the guys know how to do it without being unsafe or causing any more damage than a donut. You very often see DQ’s for contact at the rear, but from my observation it is much more rare at the front where there is actually a heck of a lot more contact taking place. I think that generally the same skills that make a driver fast (car control, anticipation, awareness, etc.) also give him the tools to eventually race closer.

That being said, it’s important to point out that that’s just one piece of the puzzle. You can’t just jump into the car and start banging into each other because you’re quick. You have to learn the charactaristics of the other drivers inside and outside of the car before you start racing that hard. Who is smart and aware? Who has a rocky past with contact? Who takes pride in his paint job? These are all important observations. When I started to get more competitive, some of the frontrunners asked me point blank if I was comfortable with that kind of racing. I do the same thing now with some of the newer up and coming drivers. There are some that I am very willing to go metal to metal with, and there are some that I avoid like the plague.

So to answer the question, IMO we are not a “bumper car” series in the sense that we crash into each other and wreck all the time. That stuff does happen and it’s unfortunate that lightning has struck so many times at the same driver. But there is a harsh contact points system in place in the MA and in the end you just have to trust the system to limit the dangerous and expensive kind of contact. There are other kinds of bumping that can only be done at certain times and places and only with certain drivers. I think that’s what the other driver failed to realize in his point about cobetto’s car being torn up. I have chris’s white paint on all four sides of my car and only one of those contacts was considered an “incident” (my fault in feb.). That takes trust, skill, cooperation, and experience (which I lacked in feb.) from BOTH drivers. If all these variables are in place, appropriate contact can help drivers to work together and communicate. It can acutally make the racing more competitive and fun.

First you have to say “I am mediocre” ten times… :stuck_out_tongue:

#8

I hope to never race an E30 in Mid Atlantic if Robert’s view is typical of the guys at the pointy end of the grid (not that I would be there, but…).

I hope that is a typo and you meant “wheel to wheel.” Maybe I am bitter because I have a decent looking car and I have to pay for my own body work.

Steve D.

#9

[quote]I hope to never race an E30 in Mid Atlantic if Robert’s view is typical of the guys at the pointy end of the grid (not that I would be there, but…).

There are some that I am very willing to go metal to metal with, and there are some that I avoid like the plague.

I hope that is a typo and you meant “wheel to wheel.” Maybe I am bitter because I have a decent looking car and I have to pay for my own body work.

Steve D. [/quote]

I thought I was extremely careful to stress that both drivers would have to cooperate (as in be willing) to race close enough to make contact (notice “BOTH drivers” in all caps). As I said, it would take getting to know someone and making it clear that it is something both drivers would be ok with and even then having contact is not the objective (unless bump drafting). It’s just about being able to race close enough so that it is a possibility. And as I already said, I’m not talking about anything more than a donut.

I don’t think I ever came close to implying that if you race in the mid atlantic at the pointy end of the field then you will definitely have contact. It’s really the opposite. My point was that NASA MA takes contact seriously and thats why guys are so careful about who they do it with and how they do it.

Also, it was never a comparison between MA and SE. It was a comparison between front and back of the grid (not the same thing :stuck_out_tongue: ;)). The same is true of other regions of specE30 that I’ve raced in, and other series pro and amatuer.

And my bodywork is done with duct tape ;).

#10

Any DE4 schmuck can race close enough to touch. It takes REAL talent to race close and NOT touch. If you can’t race close without touching the cars around you, you are not a great driver. If you really think rubbin’ is racing, go run with the roundy rounders.

The race winning drivers I respect don’t come back with body damage that they contributed to creating. Todd Lamb has won two SM national championships and I don’t think he has ever - EVER - had to replace a panel on his car. Maybe he just gets lucky 20-30 weekends each year.

The concept that 2 drivers cooperate in hitting each other is so foreign to my self-funded brain I can’t even comprehend it.

When you are out there banging wheels, I hope you crawl under the car after each incident and check every nut and bolt and suspension piece to make sure you didn’t bend anything. Do you? If you just hit and keep going session after session, you are risking a catastrophic part failure that could put your competitors at risk.

Steve D.

#11

I think we’re actually just saying the same thing two different ways.

Yes the real skill is in not giving an inch and not touching. 9 times out of 10 you’re going to be able to fit a piece of paper between you but if you race close enough with someone you know and trust, every now and then you’re going to have a harmless rub. And by “you” I don’t mean you. It’s a choice to race that close.

Yes, as I said the top guys do less bodywork, but that does not mean at all that they have less contact.

“Banging” and “hitting” are not the kind of contact I’m talking about.

#12

No. We’re not saying the same thing.

When I say the top guys I respect don’t do bodywork I mean they don’t have contact and don’t do damage.

If you are talented enough to regulate the car so skillfully that you can be sure you will only inflict a donut, you should be able to avoid contact.

1 time out of 10 corners is waaaaaaay too often to be wrong or to run out of talent. One out of ten races is too many. One out of 10 weekends is too many.

I hope I have made my point.

Steve D.

#13

Just once I would like to have another driver walk up to me in the paddock and ask me if it would be okay to start banging and bumping me out on track:huh: That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Sounds like someone has a mediocre understanding of club racing.

#14

Devinney you are right on.

Robert everytime you post this my reaction:ohmy: :blink: :huh: :frowning:

#15

Thank you for those that decided to post your opinions, although it is just a few.

Please correct me if I am wrong, Robert, but you have stated that contact in inevitable and that as long as the two drivers are ok with it, then it is ok. Is this a fair assessment of your posts?

A similar response was given to me on Sunday but I would say even more towards the idea that contact is not just tolerated but is part of this series.

Is there a way to conduct polling on the SpecE30 site to ask the question, Is contact ok under any circumstances?

My perspective is that it is not, even if it is deemed a “racing incident.” The series is using the NASA guidelines for contact which, in my opinion, technically prohibits contact but does not adequately cover or prevent a culture that allows contact. My perspective is we as a group need to step up and not tolerate contact if that is choice that we all make or we need to accept that the series has become a “contact” series (and I will find another place to race).

I am in agreement with Steve D. I believe that the truly gifted drivers are the ones who can race 11/10ths without making contact.

My hope with the original post is that we all come to terms on how we want this series to move forward now that it is big and will get bigger. Whichever way it goes, I think it is up to us to make the decision that a majority of us accept.

-Steve

#16

No, not quite steve. It’s only inevitable if you race in a certain way. You can choose not to race that way and still have great racing and good results. And contact in general is not ok even if both are ok with it. There is a type of contact that is barely even contact (not the kind you had on sunday) which I can accept as a consequence of hard racing only if the other driver is ok with it too. It’s not unsafe and it doesn’t cost anything.

Nobody has to get worked up about this because its your individual choice to race that close or not. Looks like most choose not which is fine by me.

#17

allenr wrote:

[quote][quote]
No, not quite steve. It’s only inevitable if you race in a certain way. You can choose not to race that way and still have great racing and good results. And contact in general is not ok even if both are ok with it. There is a type of contact that is barely even contact (not the kind you had on sunday) which I can accept as a consequence of hard racing only if the other driver is ok with it too. It’s not unsafe and it doesn’t cost anything.

Nobody has to get worked up about this because its your individual choice to race that close or not. Looks like most choose not which is fine by me.[/quote]

:ohmy: Put the shovel down and walk away!!

#18

End result: if you see Robert A in your rearview mirror just let him by, because he is ok with contact and most of us are not. Then again, this won’t be an issue for me for quite a while, unless he’s sent back to the back again.

Well. This is an interesting subject. I pay for my own body work and would like not to bump. While I’ve not been in contact myself I’ve seen it in front of me and some of it was really stupid: passes that would never stick, last minute dive bombs, etc. I sure hope somebody doesn’t do it to me, then again I’m sure at one point I won’t be able to escape it altogether, but I hope that day comes further out in the future and not anytime soon.

I know MA is very competitive, so maybe it’s more unique to their region. I’ve not seen that type of action in SE much.

Alex.

#19

My $.02…Contact occurs when and only when a driver (or 2) makes a mistake, period. No matter how close you are racing, if there is contact, a mistake was made. If you don’t agree with that and you are purposely making contact, then something is wrong with you. I honestly don’t think anyone in the series drives like that. I think what Robert is trying to say, is that some drivers that know each other, they will race extremely close and if a mistake is made and SLIGHT contact occurs with ZERO damage, they won’t make a fuss. I think the zero damage part is the important part. But even then I think it needs to be realized that there was still an error, however small it might have been, somewhere, it wasn’t skill that caused the contact. That said, any contact that causes actual damage or is even remotely intentional should be avoided like the plague. No reason for it. Will it happen? Yes, of course. But that doesn’t make it a lax subject. Just because one person is more lenient with contact doesn’t me the people around you are. If someone hit me and caused some cosmetic damage, chances are I wouldn’t get too upset about it. But if I caused damage to someone else’s car, I would feel like hell and fully understand/expect them to be pissed. Causing damage and being surprised that someone is upset is absurd. Hopefully, that ramble makes sense and maybe even gets everybody on the same page or at least the same chapter.

#20

Kappy thanks for showing me the new secret lunch spot. I’m sorry to here about your car. To answer your question I don’t think this is a bumper car series. Anyone coming into the series thinking that this is a bumper car series should receive a rude awakening when they are reprimanded for their actions (assuming we go by the CCR) I’ve raced up front plenty and have had very little contact. I have made mistakes but very few. The people around me also have made very few mistakes.

Contact is the result of a mistake. Unless it is intentional i.e. bump drafting or a “hello Get $&%* out of the way” bump. Both of which are harmless as long as you know the routine. AND the driver you are bump drafting knows what to expect. An un expecting driver being bump drafted may have a spastic freak reaction to the bump and cause a huge accident. Also some people would not like to have their car touched for other reasons such as cosmetics. This is perfectly understandable. These are things as a driver you should know about every other car on track. Rookie or not. All of this and other instances I assume are not what is being discussed but I figured I’d add in my 2 cents although it might be worth less than that.

cheers,

P.S. I think bump drafting should be part of the curriculum for comp school.

And maybe this is a Mid Atlantic thing but I honestly don’t see a problem with asking the guy on grid in front of me if he minds if I push him down the straight.