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Here’s some anecodotal info that might be of interest.
Last year my >1yr old Toyos sucked at my 4th event. I’d stored them outside wrapped in plastic for maybe half of that period. When I checked them with a durometer their hardness had gone up by ~15% vs. new.
Tonight I checked my 3 event 4 month old Toyos. Their hardness has not gone up compared to new. They were also stored outside under plastic.
Caveat. If I get my ass kicked at RA next month I don’t want to hear shit when I blame my tires.
jtower wrote:
[quote]Ranger wrote:
it’ll be a nice change of pace from blaming your motor[/quote]
That it would.
AT LEAST YOU ARE GETTING 3 EVENTS OUT OF A SET!
THEY’RE IS NOTHING LEFT AFTER 1 WEEKEND STARTED OFF WITH 4 GROOVES ON A SET THAT WERE MADE ON THE 4TH WEEKEND OF 2010 RAN THEM 3 SESSIONS IN HPDE IN NOV.AT 7 TENTHS RAN THEM THIS WEEKEND AT INFINEON WTIH 4 GROOVES ALMOST CORDED THEM IN SUNDAYS RACE.$800.00 GONE
DISTRIBUTOR SAYS ALL KINDS OF REASONS HELL HE DOESN’T CARE THEY ARE SELLING MORE THEN EVER!!!
I COMPLAINED TO THE HEAD OF NORCAL HE WAS NOT AWARE OF THIS PROBLEM! HE IS NOW AND WANTS EVERYBODY WITH ISSUES TO SEND HIM COMPLAINTS AND SOME DATA SO HE CAN FIND OUT WHAT IS GOING ON!!!
DO THE SAME WITH YOUR LEADERS AND TELL ALL THE MIATA,944 AND ANYBODY else that will listen 
your driving/braking style can dramatically affect tire longevity. Do you have data acquisition that you might be able to compare with others’?
bruce
There is no doubt the current RA1 is NOT the same as the original RA1.
I have run RA1s since 2004. I used to get 25+ HC out of shaved ones. They became consistently better every weekend until they corded. They no longer do. Also they last only 10-15 HC now. Gary who has commented above, ran most of last season on ONE (1) set of RA1s made in 2008. We were so glad when he finally wore them out. He won every-time he ran them. The only races he did not win were when he ran newer RA1s, but then he would get smart and go back to the old set.
Toyo is doing something different. I have talked to some Honda challenge guys who thought they had set up problems last year because they were wearing out the RA1s so much faster than in the past. He was having the same problem.
Ron Cortez at AIM has given me advise that has helped a lot with current tire.
If anyone has RA1s with a date code before '09 you have a secret weapon!!!
All-righty then.
RA1’s might be worth 4 weekends, don’t blame your motor, and norcal is unraveling.
The common explanations I have heard in the Spec Miata world are this: (a) when the RA1 was reintroduced, it came with the same compound used in the R888, which wears faster and (b) as each of us progresses, we use the tires better and/or drive the car harder causing faster wear. I know I am much more attuned to the tires “going off” now than I used to be. I used to run them to the cords and now I consider them junk once grip drops off too much.
With Toyo’s NASA relationship, the chance we will switch companies is nil. The chance we can influence the tire compound is slightly better than the chance Ranger’s oil pressure will satisfy him.
I plan to do better testing this year to watch temps at different tracks. It would be nice to have a little more latitude on max camber as a way to deal with tire wear.
PS - $800 on one set? You got ripped.
Steve D wrote:
I think we can throw out (b), I’ve been basically at the same driving level for over 5 years and I’ve noticed the change. I can still just about get 2 high performing weekends on them but I have to be careful and not practice on them, it also depends alot on the track, I wouldn’t be able to get 2 weekends on them at Putnam but could at Mid Ohio. Either way these tires are no better than the R888.
Elephant4 wrote:
[quote]Steve D wrote:
I think we can throw out (b), I’ve been basically at the same driving level for over 5 years and I’ve noticed the change.[/quote] Are you running the same lap times as 5 years ago? I am not blaming increased wear entirely on (b) but it is a factor for a lot of people - the ones who remember fondly the 2006 RA1 that lasted them 5 weekends and now they are 4 seconds faster burning through RA1s every other weekend.
[quote] Either way these tires are no better than the R888.[/quote] From a wear perspective I think you are right. They seem to perform just a bit better for me than the ate ate ates.
Steve D wrote:
Yes everybody else just keeps getting faster. My lap record at Mid Ohio is from 2007. I’ll also point out that lap record was set on a 20+ heat cycle set of Toyo RA1’s. I’d be lucky to get past 15 heat cycles now.
Edit - 15 heat cycles would be good now, 12 is more like what I’m seeing. I’ve also noticed they can drop off with no warning. At Putnam last year, I dropped 1 second between sessions with absolutely no changes. It was a set that was on its 2nd weekend and was pretty worn. I ran them in practice in the morning and set good times. I decided to just leave them on for qualifying and use my newer tires for the race. In qualifying on the first lap I knew the tires were crap. I struggled to even get within 1 second of my practice times. Obviously I switched for the race and everything was fine but I was surprised how they could seemingly heat cycle out between sessions.
Having come to SE30 at the very end of 2009, I never had the pleasure of running the old RA1’s. But I will say that I was just as happy with the 888’s I ran early 2010 as I’ve been with the RA1’s since. Honestly I don’t see much difference. The 888’s I had were faster new, cost the same, and lasted just as long. These RA1’s may “last” a long time with regard to cording, but they are worthless race tires after 4-8 heat cycles.
as far as $800.00 for a set of tires we pay 10% tax plus $30.00 for a shave then $20.00 mount and balance and then to leave you without change they can charge you $5.00 for tire disposal.
i can roast a tire to 0 grooves in 2 sessions or 1 race if they are 3 months out of the mold. this is not funny they grain like hell the times are the same as older tires when they get down to 2 grooves. i have a set of 08’ with 4 grooves that i have managed to aquire from my friend and plan on using them in March at infineon. we will be taking temps for data to send to nasa. I encourage everybody that runs these tires miata and 944 to do the same and lets get nasa to straighten this out or dump toyo.
goodyear slicks don’t need any shaving saving you $120.00 per set the question is what will last.
hankook couldn’t keep up with the demand of producing enough tires.
hoosiers don’t last but give u 3 tires for winning.
i was asked after the sunday race why i couldn’t run the record shattering time that we qualified just 2 hours earlier and i had no idea. now you might be on to something. what dates are on your current sets, how fresh and let us know what happens to them.
monster e30 wrote:
Sounds like a handling problem to me. I don’t see graining on mine unless I have a bad understeer problem I can’t drive/tune around.
I am not a big fan of the ‘new’ RA1, but you can’t expect them to last if abused.
While it may be entertaining to discuss other tire manufacturers, the reality is that NASA and Toyo have a relationship that is not likely to change.
I wish I had the discipline to treat a set of RA1’s like the Hoosiers we used to run in SM. If you heat cycled them once, then left them for 2 weeks they lasted forever. If you bolted them on and ran them all weekend without that heat cycle, they were junk by the end of the weekend.
That would be an interesting test on current RA1’s.
I have run RA-1’s on my SC’d Miata for several years - They were very durable and hard to cord.
Last season was my first with the Spec E30. I got 3 long weekends out of a set of new shaved RA-1’s last year on my Spec E-30. That was 2 HPDE weekends with Time Trials and the third weekend was Comp License with 2 Races.
Needless to say I was pretty pissed, but I blamed the problem on my suspension settings. This winter I finally corner balanced the car - it was at 52.5%. Additionly, I was unable to get adequate caster & toe in
settings with the eccentric AGK RTABS. I figured my roll of the dice just came out to be craps!
Car is now 50.1% corner balanced and I am soon to upgrade to slotted RTA mounting with camber bolts.
My next set of tires will not be shaved (I can catch wear problems easier).
I’ll be monitoring my tire wear closely, so I’ll report on the wear once I get back on track later this spring.
I’ve been monitoring my tires pretty closely with a durometer for the last 3 yrs. I hve a hardness threshold where a race tire becomes a DE tire. Lets call it 10% increase in hardness and the tire is a DE tire. 15% increase in hardness and I throw the tire away. This is entirely independent of how much rubber is on the tire.
I don’t think a person is going to find magic in old tires. In my experience, a 2yr old tire that has never been used is almost at that DE threshold. A 3yr old tire is at throw-away.
Re. newer Toyos aren’t as good as old ones. I have no idea. The idea that this could be happening never occured to me so I wasn’t collecting data with an eye towards that issue.
Ranger, I would be intereted to know what your durometer readings are - if you feel like sharing.
Also, what process are you using to ensure repeatability? I’m assuming that various surface tire temps will skew the results?
I’m not questioning your methodoligy, I’m actually very interested in putting a like process in place myself.
Thanks!
PDS wrote:
[quote]Ranger, I would be intereted to know what your durometer readings are - if you feel like sharing.
Also, what process are you using to ensure repeatability? I’m assuming that various surface tire temps will skew the results?
I’m not questioning your methodoligy, I’m actually very interested in putting a like process in place myself.
Thanks![/quote]
My durometer #'s would be meaningless to you. Every device is a little different and every way you do it comes up with slightly different results. You have to get your own durometer, come up with a protocol that makes sense to you, and then keep records.
That being said…My durometer reads a new tire at ~60. My 3 event RA1’s are now at ~61, although I expected them to be a little higher. The tire goes from race to DE at ~66, and gets tossed >70.
I measure the tire about an inch from the outside edge. I take as many measurements as necessary until a majority of readings agree. Measurements are surprisingly independent of temp. So 50deg readings will probably be exactly the same as 70deg readings. But outside of that temp range you’re just asking for confusion.
My old durometer read a bit harder, even tho it was the same brand.