Hoosiers?

#41

[quote=“JonnyAction” post=59467][quote=“Ranger” post=59463][quote=“JonnyAction” post=59457][quote=“ddavidv” post=59388][quote=“Steve D” post=59380]Sorry I stirred this up. As it stands now, this is the mootest of all moot points. The information I am getting from the SM side is that NASA will be on Toyos in 2012.
[/quote]
True, but not too soon to start lobbying for something different in 2013 if that is when the contract with Toyo is up.[/quote]

Agreed, I’d like to lobby for a faster tire with a stiffer sidewall. I have done a lot of back to back tire testing and the toyos are just not up to the level that the faster DOT-R tires are.[/quote]
What use is a faster tire?

I’d lobby for a tire that is cheaper to run.[/quote]

It seems like the r6 or something similar would be almost the same price as the current Toyo’s. If we are talking same price I think faster is better. Kish probably has the right idea to vote for the most consistent tire. Either way has anyone found me a rust free two-door donor chassis yet?[/quote]
It all comes down to race weekends per dollar. The precise mix of cheap, long lasting and consistant will differ one tire to another. But in the end, what really matters is race weekends per dollar. A tire that is a little cheaper and doesn’t need to be shaved is a good start, but IMO the jury is still out on whether or not the R6, for example, lasts as long as the RA1.

There’s a lot of educated guesses here but few facts. For example, a couple racers that are convinced that the Toyo has changed the compound isn’t the same as having a Toyo engineer address the issue. One guy will say the R6 lasts longer that the RA1 and another will say that it won’t. One guy will say that softer tires don’t last as long as harder tires and another guy will say “not necessarily so”.

Tires make for a tricky debate. It’s hard as heck to set up rigorous tests, there’s lots of folks with informed opinions that they feel strongly about, there’s little info from Manufacturers and what info we have is often contradictory.

Remember with the R888 how we one group of guys swearing that they talked to a Toyo engineer and that we needed to run them at a lower pressure? And there was another group that said their Toyo engineer said run them at a higher pressure. Tires are tough.

#42

[quote=“Ranger” post=59472][quote=“JonnyAction” post=59467][quote=“Ranger” post=59463][quote=“JonnyAction” post=59457][quote=“ddavidv” post=59388][quote=“Steve D” post=59380]Sorry I stirred this up. As it stands now, this is the mootest of all moot points. The information I am getting from the SM side is that NASA will be on Toyos in 2012.
[/quote]
True, but not too soon to start lobbying for something different in 2013 if that is when the contract with Toyo is up.[/quote]

Agreed, I’d like to lobby for a faster tire with a stiffer sidewall. I have done a lot of back to back tire testing and the toyos are just not up to the level that the faster DOT-R tires are.[/quote]
What use is a faster tire?

I’d lobby for a tire that is cheaper to run.[/quote]

It seems like the r6 or something similar would be almost the same price as the current Toyo’s. If we are talking same price I think faster is better. Kish probably has the right idea to vote for the most consistent tire. Either way has anyone found me a rust free two-door donor chassis yet?[/quote]
It all comes down to race weekends per dollar. The precise mix of cheap, long lasting and consistant will differ one tire to another. But in the end, what really matters is race weekends per dollar. A tire that is a little cheaper and doesn’t need to be shaved is a good start, but IMO the jury is still out on whether or not the R6, for example, lasts as long as the RA1.

There’s a lot of educated guesses here but few facts. For example, a couple racers that are convinced that the Toyo has changed the compound isn’t the same as having a Toyo engineer address the issue. One guy will say the R6 lasts longer that the RA1 and another will say that it won’t. One guy will say that softer tires don’t last as long as harder tires and another guy will say “not necessarily so”.

Tires make for a tricky debate. It’s hard as heck to set up rigorous tests, there’s lots of folks with informed opinions that they feel strongly about, there’s little info from Manufacturers and what info we have is often contradictory.

Remember with the R888 how we one group of guys swearing that they talked to a Toyo engineer and that we needed to run them at a lower pressure? And there was another group that said their Toyo engineer said run them at a higher pressure. Tires are tough.[/quote]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t the top tier guys bringing a set of sticker tires to each race weekend?

#43

if we’re lucky then yes, they only bring one set

#44

All I can say to this thread is…

BE PATIENT !

#45

WIth all due respect Phil, you just brought back up a thread that has not posted to in three months, so… I think everyone has been patient. Are you referring to the raise in the Toyo Bucks? Or is there something else we should be waiting patiently for?

#46

I’m going to assume he thinks we will be swapping to Hoosiers after the Toyo contract runs out at the end of next season.

#47

[quote=“King Tut” post=61715]I’m going to assume he thinks we will be swapping to Hoosiers after the Toyo contract runs out at the end of next season.[/quote]The Toyo contract has been extended. The ToyoBucks program was significantly enhanced in the process. There’s another thread here with the details.

#48

Nope don’t assume that…

The new Toyo contingency is good, no? so go with that for a while…

#49

Hmmmmmmm,

Could it be that a manufactuer is rethinking their business plan and product line???
Complete speculation

#50

[quote=“PDS” post=61739]Hmmmmmmm,

Could it be that a manufactuer is rethinking their business plan and product line???
Complete speculation[/quote]

Business plan - well I think Toyo has shown how important NASA is to them

Product line - it’s pretty custom already.

Someone mentioned something about the variance in tire shaving, that’s not Toyo’s fault.

#51

minor thread hijack here, but wanted to mention that i got a set of ra1 from phil’s this summer and one of them failed at cmp, some of you may have seen it. took pics and sent to phil, they forwarded to their toyo rep who immediately contacted me, arranged for the tire to be picked up and sent to CA for inspection, and presumably will send me a replacement. big thanks to phil’s and toyo for taking care of me.

#52

So Phil do you have some sort of insider info that your not sharing or not? That seams to be what your getting at.

#53

When will the 2012 Phil’s Tire Service contingency be announced.B)

#54

Ahhhh, C’Mon… I was bored - just trying to keep the discussion going :evil:

#55

lol …when there is actually a “Phil’s Tire”…

#56

Ok I’ll preorder the Phils tire but it better be fast and last 56 heat cycles. I think thats enough to do a season in the midwest.

#57

Personally, I wish we would go to the Nitto NT01. You can run that tire without shaving and it is still pretty damn nice. I ran a 3 hour enduro on a set and by the end of the race, the tires looked like I drove the car to the track on the street. Nice even tire wear and no drama. I had scrubbed them prior to the race and ran qualifying on them. From lap 2 to the end, they felt the same at full tread depth and were very consistant for me.

#58

That doesn’t mean they won’t be faster shaved in which case you would have the same problems.

#59

That doesn’t mean they won’t be faster shaved in which case you would have the same problems.[/quote]

To what you are saying Simon, I agree. But you could say that about any tire with a tread.

The point I was trying to make is that with the NT01, you would not have to shave them to be competative. You could run the tire off the shelf and by the end of your warm up and qualifying laps, the tire would be much more competative than and RA-1 would ever be if you ran it at full tread depth off the shelf. That saves $ from the get go and gives the racer an option not to shave them. In fact, I bet most wouldn’t.

All things cosidered, I could get that tire anywhere and not have worry that I will burn it up because it isn’t shaved. With an RA-1, one must shave them to race them or they risk chunking the tire up, way over heating them and ruining the tire for future use. That limits when and where you can get them.

We ran an NT01 in the 25hrs of Thunderhill and got 9 straight hours out of the tires…248 laps of racing on them and they were about the same from lap 4 to the end. Yes, they got a bit quicker after about 50 laps, but what tire won’t? Buddies of ours ran hoosiers and they had to change tires after 5 1/2 hours of run time at about 157 laps or so…big difference.

The hoosiers are going to cycle out much more quickly and much more often, which raises the costs. Hell, even going to a 225/15 tire size RA-1 would be a better option than going to the Hoosiers…IMHO

#60

[quote=“Fooshe” post=61808]
To what you are saying Simon, I agree. But you could say that about any tire with a tread. .[/quote]
True, that’s why I would prefer a tire with no tread. I consider the Nitto to have tread.

How do you know this? Wasn’t the R888 like this? Molded to 6/32nds. I still shaved those. Have you tested a shaved NT-01?
I see where you’re going but I think you underestimate the competitive nature of the racers.

[quote=“Fooshe” post=61808]
All things cosidered, I could get that tire anywhere and not have worry that I will burn it up because it isn’t shaved. With an RA-1, one must shave them to race them or they risk chunking the tire up, way over heating them and ruining the tire for future use. [/quote]
There is nothing wrong with a full tread RA1, well except its slow, chunking is any internet myth. Have you actually run a set from full tread?

[quote=“Fooshe” post=61808]
We ran an NT01 in the 25hrs of Thunderhill and got 9 straight hours out of the tires…248 laps of racing on them and they were about the same from lap 4 to the end. Yes, they got a bit quicker after about 50 laps, but what tire won’t? [/quote]
We aren’t running enduros, if the tire is faster shaved I’m going to shave them. Also a Hoosier isn’t going to get faster after new. The fact that you admitted it got faster after 50 laps means it would be best shaved and if you didn’t shave you would be playing the guessing game to get tires in the sweet spot for events like Nationals. I don’t like having to plan previous events to get tires “ready” for Nationals.

[quote=“Fooshe” post=61808]
The hoosiers are going to cycle out much more quickly and much more often, which raises the costs. Hell, even going to a 225/15 tire size RA-1 would be a better option than going to the Hoosiers…IMHO[/quote]

You don’t know this, the Spec Miata Hoosier is a different compound it is not like a regular Hoosier, so saying it will heat cycle out is pure speculation. I’m not saying the Nitto is a bad choice but you are naive to think that everyone will jut run them at 6/32nd and not shave them. I would like a tire that I don’t have to shave, run for 3 sessions to get in its sweet spot etc etc. I would put up with it if they were consistent and didn’t heat cycle out but that isn’t the case anymore. Maybe the Nitto is more like the RA1 used to be who knows. I don’t think the Hoosier would give me anymore life for sure but I do think it would give consistency and I could be fairly confident a new set would be fast. I bet I could get 2 race weekends out of the SM Hoosier, that would just be 8 competitive sessions. Thats what I get ouf the RA1 and its a juggling act guessing game trying to get the performance out of the current RA1. The Nitto might not be a bad choice but not for the reasons you are stating, its also made by Toyo I think.